Economist Jean Drèze has seen up close far too often governments failing the poor in rural India. As Donald Trump is re-elected president of the United States and Narendra Modi serves his third term in India – both of whom scapegoat minorities – for votes, Drèze, in this email interview with FORWARD Press, talks about an inward-looking academia, Brahmanism and white supremacy.
Academia in India and the US share close ties, with many Indian scholars having been trained in America and Americans coming to India for research, especially in the field of social sciences. How has academia played its part in the making of politics in both these countries?
In India at least, I don’t think that academia has had much influence on politics, certainly not electoral politics. Academia tends to be inward-looking. Student politics, however, often have a larger influence, as happened with the JP movement in the mid-1970s or the campus agitations in the US this year. Alas, the current political climate in India is hostile to student politics, or any form of dissent for that matter.
Has higher education served to create a political elite and a media that is dissociated from the masses?
The entire education system in India has an elitist bias. It is providing world-class education for the privileged and ramshackle schools to marginalized communities. This layered system is a good deal for the privileged classes, that is why it is so resistant to change. It leads to a similar elitist bias in white-collar institutions such as the media, the judiciary and the administration. The political class is a little more diverse and better connected with the masses. But it is also privileged in its own way and not necessarily more committed to the interests of the underprivileged than the intellectual elite, except under pressure.
How can higher education be made more relevant for the times we live in today?
Universities developed as a kind of cocoon where a privileged minority was able to devote itself to intellectual work with the benefit of exclusive libraries. Today, the library that most people have on their phone is vastly larger than most university libraries. The channels and methods of communication have also exploded. The butterfly of knowledge has left its cocoon and is flying all over the place. I believe that universities still have a role, but they should try to reconnect with the living world instead of staying away from it. That will make them more relevant, too.
Would grounded economists help in bringing about good governance? Is there a lack of such economists in India today?
I think that it would be a good thing for more economists to have practical experience of the economy. How many of them have seen the inside of a factory? Some do have experience of the banking sector, finance ministry or corporate boards. This can be useful, but it also reinforces the privileged mindset that we tend to acquire in exclusive educational institutions. Lack of practical experience may not be an issue if you want to prove theorems or crunch data, but it is essential for economists who wish to contribute to public policy. And even crunching data, quite often, benefits from an understanding of what lies behind the numbers.
Have caste (India) and race (US) played a role in the creation of the elite?
Indeed, the caste system creates a permanent position at the top for a small minority. Today, this monopoly is being threatened to some extent by democratic institutions and the modern economy. This is one reason why the Hindutva movement is so popular among the upper castes: it upholds a Brahmanical worldview that places them at the top. It is possible that something similar is happening in the US. A section of the white population resents having to share space with other races, so it throws its weight behind white supremacists. Remember, the acceptance of Black people as equal citizens is very recent in the US. Of course, white supremacists are just a minority of Trump’s supporters, just as Hindu nationalists are a minority of Modi’s supporters. But both are powerful factions.
Do educated liberals in India and the US suffer from a sense of entitlement by virtue of the caste and race they come from?
I think that privileged people everywhere usually strive to defend their privileges. There are various ways of doing this. One is to hide your privileges, for instance by calling yourself “middle class” when you actually belong to the top income decile. Another is to claim that your privileges are due to hard work, without acknowledging that your famished domestic help works even harder. A third is to try and keep the underprivileged in their place, for instance by inciting them against a powerless minority. Here again, there is a possible parallel between India and the US, with Muslims and illegal immigrants as the respective scapegoat minorities. No one is bound to fall into these traps, but it takes some work to avoid them.
Walking through the villages of Jharkhand and meeting poor Adivasis struggling to access their own bank accounts due to KYC issues, what are the thoughts that cross your mind concerning the ruling classes?
The dominant thought or rather feeling is dismay and anger at the sight of poor people being treated like shit. Their bank accounts are frozen at the drop of a hat. The system is blind to the ordeals they face with seemingly simple tasks such as ensuring that their name is spelt in the same way in their Aadhaar card and bank account. Assistance facilities are virtually non-existent. No one is accountable for errors, delays or violations of guidelines. Consent is a euphemism for coercion. The norms are basically designed for privileged people who have polished documents and digital skills. The rest are advised to improve their “financial literacy”, as bank managers like to put it.
Forward Press also publishes books on Bahujan issues. Forward Press Books sheds light on the widespread problems as well as the finer aspects of Bahujan (Dalit, OBC, Adivasi, Nomadic, Pasmanda) society, culture, literature and politics. Contact us for a list of FP Books’ titles and to order. Mobile: +917827427311, Email: info@forwardmagazine.in)
